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Snapper
 
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| Ok, I have gotten a lot of tickets over the years and all for speeding and I always just paid them. This time, however, I decided to fight it in court.....WOW, what a mistake that was. I live behind the schools in Navarre, there are 3 of them all jumbled together. If you leave my house and drive to HWY98 there is not one sign that tells you what time the school zones are. Now, I went out there and got on 98 and accelerated to a whopping 31mph by the end of the school zone. Keep in mind the speed limit when no zone is in effect is 45 and 20 when it is. I got pulled over and given a ticket. Now I'm not so stupid as to not realize there is a school zone there. I have lived in the same house for 14 years, but there are 3 schools all with different start times. To this day I don't really know when the school zone times are because after I got the ticket I called the school and no one could tell me, one lady told me to look at the flashing sign.....There isn't one when leaving the school. Now, I went to court armed with pictures of the route showing no signs and nothing at all indicating when the school zone time starts. The officer tells the "judge" (I use that term very loosly now) what happened and it was factual. I then proceed to tell my side of the story. I have pictures of my view for the entire drive to 98. The "judge" didn't look at any of them. I told him that there are no signs indicating the time for the school zone on the route that I take to 98, which, is clearly indicated in the pictures. He insists I should "know" because of the flashin lights. Now, this is where I read to him the statute on school zones. It clearly stated that the school zones must be clearly marked with the TIMES the zone is in effect or have a flashing light. Well, I couldn't very well call him an idiot in court...the signs can only be seen as flashing from one side, if you are in the middle you can't see that. So, I stated all of this and when he started coming at me with all of this "I should just know because I have lived there all this time." I was still trying to make him understand that I couldn't see the signs and didn't know, he got pissed, doubled my fine and called me guilty. All but threw me out of the court. I am now debating on whether or not to get a lawyer and try to fight this thing further. The one thing I do know is that Judge Hilliard now has ZERO of my respect as a public official and that I am here to tell you that facts mean nothing in court in Santa Rosa. And if anyone here knows this "judge" feel free to let him know I'd be happy to discuss my dissatisfaction any time. If I'm in the wrong I'll be the first to admit it, but, this time, I honestly drove to and pulled out as I would any time. It seems to me that these indicators are there to REMIND you that the zone is in effect. I am just astounded at this point.
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Sailfish
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sounds like quite the pompous ass....fight it
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Snapper
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| My first question would be; why was Judge Hilliard presiding over traffic court ? In Santa Rosa County, traffic hearing officers handle infraction hearings. It only goes to a Judge when the hearing officer's ruling is appealed. I don't think paying an attorney would be necessary, but you should appeal the ruling on the grounds of your research. I have no tolerance of school or work zone speeders, and will stroke out a citation for either, but if the area was not property marked, you should have grounds for a defense. Unfortunatly, you found out the hard way that the court can impose a much higher fine than what is posted on the citation.
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Snapper
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| What has me so fired up is I get the impression that I was guilty the instant I started talking. It just makes no sense at all. If I should just know because I have lived by schools for 15 years then why have signs at all? Everyone should just know. But, we don't do it that way...why?...because like any other traffic hazard you put up a sign to REMIND people of the danger/hazard. If they had a sign going towards that intersection from the school that said the times for the school zone then I would know. Here is another little twist, there is a sign at that intersection that says no right on red from 7am to 8am...the officer told the judge that he has seen me a ton of times at that intersection and never made a right on red during that time( I honestly think the officer was trying to help me out at this point). Ok, so right there it is...WHEN THE SIGN IS THERE WITH THE TIMES I FOLLOW IT....Judge....ignores the whole thing....WOW. Now better yet..this next year the times for the schools are changing....I'm screwed. It's not about the money, if it were I would have paid the fine and moved on. This is about getting busted for doing something I couldn't have known was wrong and then about the fact that this "judge" can't even see the simplest logic that dictates that I should not have gotten the ticket. This is the first time I have ever stood before a judge for anything and the outcome was absolute nonsense. I have never been so disenchanted with a system in my life. You have an "ideal" about how our court system works, when you see it in action you will really be disappointed. It is truly a sad day for this american having seen how his judicial system works.
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Sailfish
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you're wrong....governments view traffic enforcement as easy revenue
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Snapper
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Hell yes fight it! I understand what you are going through. A friend of mine got pulled over in the city of milton about 1 and 1/2 years ago, when they were doing construction. They had taken down the speed limit signs. I know if you are heading east on 90 the speed drops from 45 to 35 at the autozone. However, when he got pulled over for speeding he was past the old sign(which wasn't there because of construction) he got a ticket. The next day he took a few pics and fought it in court and won. Later another deputy and I were talking about the incident and he was pissed that he got off! I understand that the speed limit is there for a reason(now what the reason is I often wonder) but, come on use a little logic! I say fight it. You do NOT have to have a lawyer just do some research. MSN had an article on fighting tickets a few months back! just my .02!
-------------------------------------------------------------Each day is a GIFT, that is why it is called the PRESENT! 14' randall craft with trolling motor! Yeah Baby! MIKE TAVENER
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Sailfish
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| well, i get the impression that traffic court judges have heard it all before and are probably tired of hearing it again. The cop got you, you don't deny it, class closed. Right or wrong, thats probably the judge's mentality. This is JMHO. In fact, on another forum I heard this guy talking about how he went to fight a ticket he got while speeding. He got caught on radar and took his electronic tech degree diploma to the traffic court to establish himself as a radar expert so he could testify how speed radars can't work. Crap like that is what kills legimate complaints. not taking the judge's side here, thats just the impression I've gotten. I know what you mean by signs not being posted. I've been on side streets before and they aren't always marked very well. Kind of over looked. But, isn't school out?
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Snapper
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| I find it poor form if an officer gets upset over the ruling of a court. I've been doing this too long to take anything done in the line of duty personal. Someone mentioned the MSN piece on beating tickets. Be careful following the advise of national columns on this subject. In Florida, traffic infractions are handled as a civil violation, not criminal. This takes away the requirement of "beyond reasonable doubt" and makes it an issue of "preponderance of the evidence". Is is a subtle point, but makes a world of difference when presenting or defending a traffic infraction. Also; someone made a reference to tickets generating revenue. While this is correct, you may be surprised to find how little of a traffic fine goes to local government or law enforcement. I don't have actual number at hand, but the vast majority goes to the state level, so there is really no incentive for us to issue tickets, other than it's part of the job. And please, nobody even mention quotas, they do not exist, at least with my agency.
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White Marlin
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Here is one for you. A few years ago I was given a ticket for running a stop sign. I, in fact did stop. The officer was sitting in a private driveway, watching this particular stop sign. No one could see him as they came up to it. Well the officer was sitting in his car, looking over a hill and could see the sign itself and maybe a foot below it. As I came up to the sign a SUV was stopped beyond the sign but not in the intersection. I stopped behind the SUV with my car bumper even with the sign, and after the SUV moved I proceeded to go. As I was turning I took another quick look to the West (4:30 PM) and the sun blinded me so I hit my brakes and was about a foot into the intersection. Nothing coming and I proceeded. Out comes the officer. I explain that I did in fact stop but he wouldn't hear a word and wrote me up. The very next day and at the exact same time, I had my wife in her Yukon stop where the other SUV was, and I stopped behind her. I got out and positioned myself where the officer was and at the level he would of been sitting in the car, and took pictures. There was NO way he saw me...The hill blocked his view of my car.....I was in my Miata. But that is not what concerned me. So I show up for my date and want a judicial audience as I was going to plead NOT GUILTY. Court date on a Monday..the something. Well on the Friday before my court date we got a call about 8PM that Susan's Mother died and we were on our way to McComb, MS in a matter of a hour or so. Early Monday morning BEFORE the court date time I called (on my Brother in Law's phone...proof of call) and explained the situation and was given another date. All is well....I thought. A week later (before my second date) I get a letter from the state that my drivers license has been suspended/revoked (not sure which one) anyways I drive to Alabaster, AL 7 miles up the road to get this straightened out. The city had made a mistake on who called in. Now to get this straightened out it was ALL up to me and the city has NOTHING to do with it at this point. I had 2 choices 1) Write the State, explain what transpired, and submit a letter from the city....now this will take up toward 6 weeks ....or 2) Go to Montgomery and personally submit the paperwork...Now my wife has to take me (she was working at that time and I have no valid DL), its 60 miles one way and the expense of the trip is on me. Well as it turned out I raised enough hell at city hall that the city contacted the State, threw out the ticket and I drove around with the letter from the city for about the next 4 weeks, hoping that the letter would suffice should I be stopped for ANYTHING......What happened to you doesn't surprise me in the least...however unjust it seems.I have a ICON for that situation.......I'll PM it to you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'm a Sagittarius...If you don't want to hear the truth then don't ask my opinion!
Then again I'm a "Vacuous Asshat"  Political Correctness:
A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rapidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. “Tell me who your friends are and I will tell who you are.” Century 25' Mirada 350/260HP "ISLAND LADY" >>>> Calera, Alabama My Pictures
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Sailfish
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Its kinda damn if you do and damn if you dont, ingnorance is no execption to the law but I agree there should be signs on both sides of the road. I dont know the school hours of the schools around my house, its pretty crappy that the judge wouldnt even give you a fair chance and look at you pics. But like said in post above its all a revenue issue to the county. I would make a phone call or send emails to the county and inform them of your problem they might be able to install a sign in the opposite direction. Good luck and let us know what happens if you pursue the matter.
Voting for Obama and then deciding to fight for gun rights makes about as much sense as fighting for your daughter to keep her virginity after dropping her off at a bar. NRA Member http://www.nra.org
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Mingo
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| Those school zones in Navarre are a bitch. Did you get it at the one by the post office? That cop is always sitting there and he usually gets a few speeders every day.
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Snapper
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SCUBA Junkie (6/17/2008)
In Florida, traffic infractions are handled as a civil violation, not criminal. This takes away the requirement of "beyond reasonable doubt" and makes it an issue of "preponderance of the evidence". Is is a subtle point, but makes a world of difference when presenting or defending a traffic infraction.It sounds like to me that there was evidence that the judge chose to ignore, for whatever reason. The way the story is told it appears that the evidence withheld may have exonerated the accused. Based on the above narratiuon I would have to assume this judge is a real (edit) not a nice person.
Donny Hanto War Eagle!!! Team Kickin Assphalt
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Grouper
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| The problem is that our political offices are full of people who couldn't make it in the private sector so it's not like they are the cream of the crop. Sad but true.
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Snapper
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| Yeah, it was the one by the post office. The officer is not a bad guy, he is just doing what he thinks should be done. I just think that any idiot could see that if you sit between the 2 signs you can't see them flashing and if you are not looking at the clock or you don't have a kid in school at that time you wouldn't even know the school zone is in effect. The officer also stated that he was at the far end of the school zone with his lights on and that I should have seen that and known it was because of the school zone. But, I have seen NO officers there and I have seen officers there with lights off and I have seen them there with lights on and no school zone in effect. And if you read the section on school zones no where does it say that a police car with lights on can serve as indication of a school zone. Oh yeah, and every sunday the cops are in the media with lights on...school? Church? speed limit change? anyone know? I bet no one really knows the answer to that either, but if you get a ticket for it you can bet your ass you're guilty before you even get to Milton. And don't bother bringing evidence cause they don't look at it.
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Snapper
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| The only response I can offer is; the school zone enforcement in that area is a priority issue. I don't know if the push is from the school board or the local parents. The deal with Sundays is the churches hiring officers off duty to maintain a high profile around the church so the congregation can get in and out of the property without getting run over. Someone posted about the ommission of evidence. Sorry, no such thing. If a question is asked of an officer, by the defendant, he/she must answer truthfully, but the question must be asked.
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Trigger
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| Come on now...you KNEW the zone was there and you KNEW it was in effect. You found a loophole due to the orientation of the sign and tried to exploit it, but the judge didn't buy it. Rather than be indignant about it, fess up to your mistake and move on. Harry
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Snapper
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| How exactly did I know it was in effect? There are no times on the signs. If I knew the times I would obey them. That's why they put the flashy signs on the roads, so that you don't have to know the times, you just look at the sign, the FACT is that as per Florida statutes all schools zones must be marked with the time that they are in effect or have flashing lights and the street I was on had neither. And my daughter is still asleep when I leave for work so I only know that it can't be in effect if she is still dead asleep on the couch when I walk out the door. Do you leave the house at the exact same time every day? No. You're as much of a &*^&* as the judge. Hell, I'm going to guess that you are a judge and now you're finding me guilty the same way he did, just assume that someone knows and that everyone is lying. Call me a liar again, next time to my face. Yet another person with a case of forum bravery.
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White Marlin
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To begin with times posted on signs are NO DAMN good..needs to have flashing light. If you are in a 45MPH speed zone doing 45......You better have damn good eyesight to see those small numbers. I can't read them that quick so if I'm anywhere near a school during morning/afternoon I slow down just in case (but that is not the point)...BUT they should be large enough to read them to begin with. And if like you say you come out between signs ....oh well Shame on you for not having the foresight to know EXACTLY what time it is and a memory to remember the EXACT zone hours for all schools. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'm a Sagittarius...If you don't want to hear the truth then don't ask my opinion!
Then again I'm a "Vacuous Asshat" Political Correctness:
A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rapidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. “Tell me who your friends are and I will tell who you are.” Century 25' Mirada 350/260HP "ISLAND LADY" >>>> Calera, Alabama My Pictures
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Snapper
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| I'm with ya, I bet good old harry and the judge know when all schools are in. You know what? I drive by the post office everyday...I have no clue when it opens and closes either. Oh and the guy that know the hours of all of the schools either works there or he's a pedophile. Here is how I know when the school zone is in effect....the people driving in front of me on 98 are going 20mph....which is great 99% of the time, cause I am coming from an off street and rarely have the green light until I have sat there for a bit....the day I got the ticket was one of those green light days...and the officer even told that to the judge, so, I didn't even have cross traffic to tell me...
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Trigger
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Sounds like you got a bum deal, WW2. And it will happen to you again if someone does not take action to solve the problem that got you in this mess in the first place. Have you checked, or plan to check, into what to do to get the side streets marked (or some other school zone indicator) for the next school year? Maybe solving the problem will help keep others from getting it in the rear without any lube, like you did.
Never tell the truth about how you lie.
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Snapper
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| I am mixed. I myself will ensure that I never drive over 20 in the school zone active or not. I'm not going to let them screw me again. I'm wanting to get the problem fixed but I'm not sure I want to try to force the county to spend a bunch of money on signs. But then I also am thinking that if I am making this mistake then surely others are and should I try to ensure that the intersection is safer by having all streets properly marked. which the very last point is the one I thought would be the responsible thing for the judge to take...look at the circumstance from a non-biased standpoint and recognize there might be an issue that needs to be addressed. but, he went for the $500 instead. I can only hope they use that money to fix the signage.
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Snapper
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WW2... I must live within a rocks throw of you. My wife did the same thing several years ago for the same reason. Luckily the officer let her go with a verbal warning and I suppose we've been lucky enough to catch a red light thus enabling us to observe the traffic flow since then. That's the only reason I can think of that we haven't been ticketed going that way because that is not our usual travel route, but we do go west occasionally during school zone hours. I'm sure we will eventually do the same thing you've done if we catch a green light as traffic flow is the only real clue when entering 98 from Thresher Dr. I've often wondered why the county doesn't place a sign reminding us of the school zone hours; especially since this particular school zone is actually related to three different schools...
May the holes in your net be no larger than the fish in it. ~Irish Blessing
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Trigger
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WW2 (6/17/2008)
How exactly did I know it was in effect? There are no times on the signs. If I knew the times I would obey them. That's why they put the flashy signs on the roads, so that you don't have to know the times, you just look at the sign, the FACT is that as per Florida statutes all schools zones must be marked with the time that they are in effect or have flashing lights and the street I was on had neither. And my daughter is still asleep when I leave for work so I only know that it can't be in effect if she is still dead asleep on the couch when I walk out the door. Do you leave the house at the exact same time every day? No. You're as much of a &*^&* as the judge. Hell, I'm going to guess that you are a judge and now you're finding me guilty the same way he did, just assume that someone knows and that everyone is lying. Call me a liar again, next time to my face. Yet another person with a case of forum bravery.Dude you are in a serious case of denial. You drive through that school zone every day, for many years by your own admission. Even if you did not know the EXACT times, you knew it was morning and that kids go to school in the morning. I live in a school zone and I KNOW not to speed through it. I obviously can't prove you knew it, but you'd have to be functionally retarded to not know it...you make the choice. So man up and take your punishment instead of whining like a little b*tch! As for forum bravery, I post under my real name with my real picture as an avatar...unlike you who posts under a screen name. And your veiled threat of physical violence just marks you as immature, so grow up. Harry
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Snapper
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| Yeah, the person above me says the same thing.... You slow to 20 even when school is out? You slow to 20 when it's lunch time? You don't and you know you don't. You're just another PFF member with the usual need to stick your nose where it don't belong. But, hey, I should be like you and just take it in the ass everytime someone wants to put it there...
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Snapper
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Thanks fellas for making my lunch hour more enjoyable!!
Adams Lawn Care
Navarre, 850-218-8680, Steve Adams
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White Marlin
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Catchin Hell (6/18/2008)
I'm sure we will eventually do the same thing you've done if we catch a green light ... Tarver...if you do Harry Brosofsky (6/18/2008)
[quote]you'd have to be functionally retarded... and I know thats not the case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'm a Sagittarius...If you don't want to hear the truth then don't ask my opinion!
Then again I'm a "Vacuous Asshat" Political Correctness:
A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rapidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. “Tell me who your friends are and I will tell who you are.” Century 25' Mirada 350/260HP "ISLAND LADY" >>>> Calera, Alabama My Pictures
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Trigger
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WW2 (6/18/2008)
Yeah, the person above me says the same thing.... You slow to 20 even when school is out? You slow to 20 when it's lunch time? You don't and you know you don't. You're just another PFF member with the usual need to stick your nose where it don't belong. But, hey, I should be like you and just take it in the ass everytime someone wants to put it there... I drive 20 through the school zone in the morning and I don't come back home until after 5, so I KNOW school is out. If for some reason I do come home early, I have a damned good idea that schools generally run from about 7 AM to 4PM and that high schoolers often leave campus for lunch, so I do indeed slow down to 20. Also, if you didn't want people to respond to your immature tirade, you should not have posted it here...you made it my business and everyone elses' when you posted it here. Bottom line...your ego got bruised and you wanted someone to massage it for you (and quite a few folks did). As for me, I'm not buying it...you screwed up and you have to pay the price, and if you dealt with the judge the way your are acting here, you'd have ended up in the pokey for contempt. Lastly, regarding taking it up the ass, that's not my orientation. If that's a come on line, I'm not interested. Try Chemistry.com...I understand they don't restrict that orientation like eHarmony.com does. Harry
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Snapper
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| LOL, I'm sure you do.....thanks for your input. I'll keep an eye out for the only guy in Gulf Breeze doing 20mph through that huge school zone when the signs aren't flashing... oh and if you read my post you will see that I clearly forgot about the school zone as I was leaving, thus the statement that I thought the sign should be there to REMIND people that school is in session. See, that is what the signs are for, they are there to remind you of what you should be doing. Otherwise there is no reason to have them.
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Sailfish
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Snapper
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| The fact that you even know about those sites talls me all I need to know...
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